A Season of Discontent?

(Cross-posted at Clintonistas for Obama.)

I have a friend who is an amazing activist; she never fears to put her body on the line for the progressive causes in which she believes. She is very pragmatic and recognizes that the Democratic Party, with all its foibles, represents the best means to achieve her objectives. She voted for Barack Obama in the primary in her state, and we agreed to disagree about who should be the nominee of the Democratic Party. Yesterday, she sent me an email that said:

I really, really need an explanation of his vote on FISA. He's a former Constitutional law professor, for Godssake...how could he vote for something that abrogates the FOURTH AMENDMENT? I MUST know his reasoning on this vote. It's the only thing that's gotten to me about all of this campaign silliness. It's big.

In the immortal words of Bill Clinton, let me say that I feel her pain. I reminded her in an email that I sent back that Obama's ascendancy was none of my doing, but given the deal on the table, that is, John McCain or Barack Obama, I am backing Obama without hesitation.

Last night, my compadre atdnext published a diary here that asked, "Is This What 'PUMA' Stands For?" I exchanged messages with a noted PUMA in that thread and posted this message:

What do you propose to accomplish? Does anyone imagine we can make Hillary the nominee now? And even if we could (and did), what wreck of a party would be left to meet the Republicans in the fall? I am baffled by what you want (or think you want.)

If Obama wins in the fall, you will not share in the victory. If Obama fails in the fall, you will be blamed like we have blamed the Naderites these last eight years.

I don't get it. I just don't understand.

A reply I received was about PUMAs wanting to change the party. Well, maybe that's the case, but endeavoring to change the party in the middle of a general election campaign sure tastes like sour grapes to me.

Both my disappointed Barack partisan and my angry PUMA friends seem to have forgotten that in America, there is a winnowing process where no one gets everything they want but everybody on your side, if you win, gets something of what they want. It is time for all of us Democrats to get past the particularities and look at the big picture. Lots of us may have encountered things in the political process that we find disillusioning. Lots of us may believe Hillary would have been the better candidate. All of us may believe the Party needs reform. Let me tell you something: all of that and $4.02 will get you a venti skim latte at Starbucks.

If people want to hold on to their resentments, turn grief over in their hearts, imagine "what if," or get exorcised about even real grievances, and John McCain becomes president because of it, we are going to wind up with nothing at all.

Me? I think eating a quarter loaf of bread is a whole lot better than starving to death. And that's what I've been doing since November 2000--starving to death.



Display:


Well said. (2.00 / 9)

my disappointed Barack partisan and my angry PUMA friends seem to have forgotten that in America, there is a winnowing process where no one gets everything they want but everybody on your side, if you win, gets something of what they want.

Absolutely. We all compromise in the end.


Even John McCain lusts after teh engels.
by sricki on Wed Jul 16, 2008 at 09:25:53 PM EST

Yep, yep, yep... (2.00 / 3)

And while I'd prefer we get 100% of that loaf, I can settle for 60-80%. At least I'm not going hungry...


No way, no how, no McCain! :-)
by atdleft on Wed Jul 16, 2008 at 09:46:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Why? It's not about winning, it's about principle! (none / 0)

How can you ever trust that man, a constitutional lawyer at that, who voted against your and my civil rights, all for his political ambition? What will he be willing to sacrifice next?

Why does it have to be a choice between Obama and McCain? Why not vote for a reasonable third party candidate to send a message that your vote is not to be taken for granted! Your candidate, himself, told you that you have nowhere else to go, don't you find that insulting? I do! Why not show him that, yes, there are alternatives.... This excuse is so lame - were it to be a divided government, nothing could be accomplish to cause further damage. Let the chips fall where they may, it's the best solution!

Sometime it's better to lose than compromise on fundamental principles such as protecting our civil rights, championning health care for everyone, not just kids, defending a woman's right to choose without exceptions and conserving the separation between state and church - all previous democratic tenets now compromised by your candidate!

I'm ashamed, to ever have called myself a democrat! The party has now become republican "lite" and it's a hard pill to swallow!


by suzieg on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 08:43:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You can vote for whomever you want, (none / 0)

but only Barack Obama or John McCain will be president.  


That's it, baby; let's go win this election!
by Beltway Dem on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 10:59:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Sorry, the consitancy is just not there. (none / 0)

I would buy that, except 90% of the PUMAs were so defensive about Senator Clinton supporting Republic votes like AUMF and Kyl-Lieberman?

Sorry, I am not buying it, the consitancy is not there, this outraged is loaded with sour grapes.

I would bet my 401K THE VAST MAJORITY of the PUMA/Clinton-istas crowd would be defending Senator Clinton, if she, as the candidate, would have done what Senator Obama did, and vote to NOT hand the Republics a hammer to pound her with on FISA.

Show me ONE posts by these PUMAs where they attacked ANYTHING Senator Clinton did, to move the middle. Penn had her doing in BEFORE the Primary started?

Flag Burning Ammendment Anyone?


"Well the danger on the rocks is surely past... Still I remain tied to the mast"...Don Fagen, Poet and Piano Player
by WashStateBlue on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 12:07:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

what rock have i been under? (2.00 / 7)

your diaries rock.  and even though we're co-bloggers on C4O - i dont think i have ever read one before.  well done!


"Me Fail English? That's Unpossible." Ralph Wiggum
by canadian gal on Wed Jul 16, 2008 at 09:27:14 PM EST

Thanks, canadian gal! (2.00 / 6)


That's it, baby; let's go win this election!
by Beltway Dem on Wed Jul 16, 2008 at 09:44:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You deserve it, Beltway... (2.00 / 2)

You keep us grounded... And you're one of my heroes. :-)


No way, no how, no McCain! :-)
by atdleft on Wed Jul 16, 2008 at 09:53:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Abrogates the Fourth Amendment (2.00 / 3)

is hyperbole.  I think the FISA bill is bad and would prefer that every Dem voted against it, but the rhetoric about it is way over the top.


by JJE on Wed Jul 16, 2008 at 09:29:39 PM EST

Re: Abrogates the Fourth Amendment (2.00 / 2)

 Hyperbole or not, I just want a President who has a brain, and in that brain I want a clue. Heavens to Betsy, my friends! The choice is before us and it is pretty damn clear that Obama has the only functioning brain on the table.


by QTG on Wed Jul 16, 2008 at 10:05:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Stop this ageism attack - it's beyond contempt! Dr (none / 0)

deBakey who just died this week, 2 months shy of his 100th birthday, was still performing surgery at 98 before his aneurism. Boris Yeltsin had him flown to Russia to perform his bypass when he was in his late 80s - I find any kind of ism offensive and so should you!


by suzieg on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 08:49:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop this ageism attack - it's beyond contempt (none / 0)

I read grandparent post a few times, and I don't see any ageist attack.  People can be plenty stupid without being old.


by reenactor on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 08:59:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop this ageism attack - it's beyond contempt (none / 0)

 You are correct. My remarks were purely brainist.


by QTG on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:15:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Season of Discontent? (2.00 / 6)

The Supreme Court:  that's my quarter of a loaf.

I ain't happy, I ain't glad, but I'll vote for the Democrat.

My emphasis now is going to be to change the primary system of the Democratic party, pushing it towards transparency, one-person, one-vote and the elimination of super delegates.   My outrage at the 2008 process is still palpable, but I'm not willing to allow another 4-8 years of Rethuglican rule.


by Radiowalla on Wed Jul 16, 2008 at 09:41:07 PM EST

Actually, (2.00 / 5)

the Supreme Court is dinner at the Palm.


That's it, baby; let's go win this election!
by Beltway Dem on Wed Jul 16, 2008 at 09:43:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I know, I know... (2.00 / 4)

There are times when I'm still angry over the primary. And yes, we DEFINITELY must work to reform the primary process. But if we don't elect a Democratic President this year, there will be nothing left to reform... John McBush will have allowed the complete destruction of our democracy.


No way, no how, no McCain! :-)
by atdleft on Wed Jul 16, 2008 at 09:49:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I know, I know... (none / 0)

Do you think that if Obama is elected the Democratic Party will
actually go forward with primary reform?  Somehow I doubt it.

On the other hand, if Obama loses, I think there will be major teeth gnashing and hand wringing which will lead to a hard look at the process which led to his nomination.

But as I said before, I'm voting against McCain and for the Democrat.


by Radiowalla on Wed Jul 16, 2008 at 10:15:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I know, I know... (none / 0)

I think that if it's something Clinton wanted done, it would get done. It'd be harder if she didn't. Or even if she did, since Terry McAuliffe himself put together big portions of it.

We can all push for it. I'd be more than willing to do so, and I think a lot of people would be willing to listen on something like that. Plouffe won by exploiting the current system, but if you gave him the opportunity to build something that would further the 50 state strategy, I bet he probably would be eager to.


If you're being chased by an angry bull and then you notice you're also being chased by a swarm of bees, it doesn't really change things. Just keep on running.
by vcalzone on Wed Jul 16, 2008 at 10:33:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

They'll be some sort (none / 0)

of primary reform, but not to the level many want it.

For example, they won't get rid of the caucuses. That's probably going to be a decision the states make themselves.


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 08:25:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Good post by MO Blue on talkleft.com (none / 0)

which should be shared:

The name floated as Obama's first nomination by MO Blue on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 09:42:17 AM EST

for the SCOTUS is Cass Sunstein. This is not reassuring. He shares the same judicial philosophy as John Roberts and publicly supported his nomination to the SCOTUS. He believes that Roe v Wade was wrongly decided and does not believe that there is a right to privacy in the Constitution especially not a right of patients and doctors to decide as they see fit.

Cass Sunstein supported the Bush Administration theory of inherent authority to spy on Americans without warrants:

...    Cass Sunstein: Yeah. I guess I'd say there are a couple of possibilities. One is that we should interpret FISA conformably with the president's Constitutional authority. So if FISA is ambiguous, or its applicability is in question, the prudent thing to do, as the first President Bush liked to say, is to interpret it so that FISA doesn't compromise the president's Constitutional power. And that's very reasonable, given the fact that there's an authorization to wage war, and you cannot wage war without engaging in surveillance. If FISA is interpreted as preventing the president from doing what he did here, then the president does have an argument that the FISA so interpreted is unconstitutional. So I don't think any president would relinquish the argument that the Congress lacks the authority to prevent him from acting in a way that protects national security, by engaging in foreign surveillance under the specific circumstances of post-9/11.

Based on this I do not share your faith that Obama appointment(s) will help to obtain positive rulings on issues that I care the most about.

and please, let's not forget that the dems abetted in the confirmation of the conservative judges:
Antonin Scalia--Appointed by Ronald Reagan. Confirmed 9/17/86 by a vote of 98-0.

Clarence Thomas--Appointed by George H.W. Bush. Confirmed on 10/15/91 by a vote of 52-48.

John G. Roberts--Appointed Chief Justice by George W. Bush. Confirmed 9/29/05 by a 78-22.

Samuel A. Alito--Appointed by Bush. Confirmed 1/31/06 by a 58-42 vote.

Let's name names:

Antonin Scalia was approved by the Senate on Sept 17, 1986 by a vote of 98-0. There were two senators absent: Barry Goldwater and Jake Garn. "I announce that the Senator from Utah [Mr. Garn] and the Senator from Arizona [Mr. Goldwater] are necessairly absent", Sen. Alan Simpson, explained at the time. "I further announce that, if present and voting, the Senator from Utah [Mr. Garn] would each vote "yea".

Senator Al Gore and Ted Kennedy (champion of women's rights?) voted to confirm Scalia.

Clarence Thomas: dem votes for confirmation:

Republicans found 11 of the Senate's 57 Democratic votes to add to the 41 Republicans who voted to confirm Judge Thomas. Those Democrats who voted for Judge Thomas were Senators Sam Nunn (being considered as an Obama VP choice) and Wyche Fowler Jr. of Georgia, Dennis DeConcini of Arizona, J. James Exon of Nebraska, Richard C. Shelby of Alabama, Alan J. Dixon of Illinois, J. Bennett Johnston and John B. Breaux of Louisiana, Chuck Robb (son-in-law of Pres. Johnson) of Virginia, Earnest F. Hollings of South Carolina and David Boren of Oklahoma. Two Republicans voted to oppose Judge Thomas: Bob Packwood (reputed sexist) of Oregon and James M. Jeffords of Vermont

On Alito, dem votes to confirm:

Democratic Senators Byrd, Conrad, Johnson, and Nelson (Nebraska) voted FOR both cloture and confirmation.

On cloture, fifteen Democratic senators apparently sought to have it both ways. These are senators who can now tell their constituents they voted against Alito when they are up for reelection, while not rocking the procedural boat in the Senate by supporting a filibuster. To me, that looks like a victory of politics over principle, nothing more.

Those fifteen Democrats are thus responsible for the confirmation of Samuel Alito. They are Senators Akaka, Baucus, Bingaman, Cantwell, Carper, Dorgan, Inouye, Kohl, Landrieu, Lieberman, Lincoln, Nelson (Florida), Pryor, Rockefeller, and Salazar.

Names of the 22 Democrats who voted to confirm John Roberts Jr.:

Max Baucus (D - MT) Jeff Bingaman (D - NM) Robert Byrd (D - WV) Thomas Carper (D - DE) Kent Conrad (D - ND) Christopher Dodd (D - CT) Byron Dorgan (D - ND) Russell Feingold (D - WI) Tim Johnson (D - SD) Herb Kohl (D - WI) Mary Landrieu (D - LA) Patrick Leahy (D - VT) Carl Levin (D - MI)Joseph Lieberman (D - CT) Blanche Lincoln (D - AR) Patty Murray (D - WA) Bill Nelson (D - FL)
Ben Nelson (D - NE) Mark Pryor (D - AR) Jay Rockefeller (D - WV) Ken Salazar (D - CO) Ron Wyden (D - OR)

Feel reassured yet?


by suzieg on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:59:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Give me a break, (none / 0)

we're supposed to assume that blog speculation about a prospective nominee to the Court is a reason to vote against Obama?  This is borderline delusional territory.


That's it, baby; let's go win this election!
by Beltway Dem on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 11:01:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Season of Discontent? (2.00 / 5)

Couldn't have said it any better...Awesome!!


Obama supporter who is damn glad Hillary Clinton is a Democrat!!
by hootie4170 on Wed Jul 16, 2008 at 09:45:21 PM EST

Re: A Season of Discontent? (none / 0)

At some point in one's life, they are faced with a decision to either take a stand in respect to their individual principled beliefs or not....I don't fault anyone for acting on their beliefs if done so in a legal fashion. It is so easy to say..compromise..rise above it...

This election will be won or lost by Obama...

I have never believed in this unity mantra this election cycle...

If the Democratic Party is forever changed..then it is...


by Liberty on Wed Jul 16, 2008 at 09:56:17 PM EST

hhmm... (none / 0)

could you elaborate?  im not disagreeing with you - but i dont fully understand.


"Me Fail English? That's Unpossible." Ralph Wiggum
by canadian gal on Wed Jul 16, 2008 at 11:21:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

thank you! (none / 0)


by suzieg on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 10:00:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Great line: (none / 0)

Obama's ascendancy was none of my doing, but given the deal on the table, that is, John McCain or Barack Obama, I am backing Obama without hesitation


Obama supporter working to defeat McCain.
by Rumarhazzit on Wed Jul 16, 2008 at 10:56:38 PM EST

Agreed. (2.00 / 1)

I can't do anything that might help McCain become president.


Linfar's co-blogger opposing John McCain
by psychodrew on Wed Jul 16, 2008 at 11:30:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Season of Discontent ? (none / 0)

... and more than content with your cool, clear reasoning.  

Thanks for sober consideration.  I think that primary reform is (obviously) needed, and it needs to take place outside of the heat of the campaign.


January 20 & sricki join with The engels in love!
by January 20 on Wed Jul 16, 2008 at 11:16:09 PM EST

How will the party ever change? (2.00 / 1)

A reply I received was about PUMAs wanting to change the party. Well, maybe that's the case, but endeavoring to change the party in the middle of a general election campaign sure tastes like sour grapes to me.

When Obama is elected president, Obama loyalists will be running the DNC.  Why should the PUMAs have any reason to believe that party reform would happen after Obama is elected?

Many of the PUMAs are looking into the future and saying that it is better to suffer through four more years of GOP rule if the end result is a primary process that is democratic and politics of race and gender are forever purged from Democratic primaries.  In their view, it is in the best long-term interest of the party to use their votes as leverage for this reform (which doesn't seem to be working) or defeat the candidate so the party is forced to reform.  Still others cannot, in good conscience, support a nominee who won under a flawed process.  That is a vote of conscience and it is their right to cast that vote.

I don't agree with the PUMAs, but I think this is a legitimate, rational argument.  Many of them are doing what they feel is best for the party and the nation.  It's not just "discontent" and "resentment."


Linfar's co-blogger opposing John McCain
by psychodrew on Wed Jul 16, 2008 at 11:28:07 PM EST

Re: How will the party ever change? (2.00 / 1)

You think that saying the primary system can be changed so that race and gender politics are eliminated is rational?

How exactly does one accomplish that goal by changing anything systematically? Would the system automatically deliver a fatal electric shock to any public figure that uses race and gender politics?

As far as reforming the primary system so that it's more "fair", I agree that many people in the party would like a uniform system nationally that gives proportional representation to voters directly. It would hopefully help to eliminate the feeling of being "cheated" when a candidate winds up in second place.


by glopster on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 12:20:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How will the party ever change? (2.00 / 1)

That's not what I'm saying.

What I'm saying is that they believe the reforming the party for the long term is more important than winning the GE.

Some of the PUMAs I've spoken to believe that the accusations of race-baiting and sexism contributed to Hillary's defeat.  They believe that if Obama is elected, that strategy will only be validated, but defeating him will keep that kind of politics from appearing again.

I don't necessarily agree, but the point I'm trying to make is that this is not only about sour grapes.  Many of the PUMAs have legitimate reasons for taking this course of action.


Linfar's co-blogger opposing John McCain
by psychodrew on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 12:39:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How will the party ever change? (2.00 / 2)

The party is in the process of being reformed. The Dean/Obama 50-state strategy, with organization and a ground game being put in place in long-neglected areas of the country, is well underway. It's bringing new blood and fresh energy, as well as small donor money and volunteerism into the party. It's exploring new technologies to involve more people, and promoting grass-roots style participation at a time when fresh approaches and innovative thinking are vital for the future of the country.

It's a renovation that's growing the party, helping to energize the next generation of party activists, giving real support to Democratic challengers in red districts, and expanding GOTV to unprecedented levels. It's an approach that will ultimately challenge the republican party in every part of the country, in state and local races as well as national ones.

I honestly can't understand the opposition to any of this, or what the alternative is supposed to be.

The Obama candidacy has been great for the party. The approach taken by his campaign and by Dean at the DNC to make Democrats competitive everywhere is everything we could ask for.

Changing the primary process is a good longer-term goal, but even the current changes auger well for the future. Given the way the rules were flaunted by some states this time around and the way the state parties jockey for influence, it's not something that's going to happen with a magic wand. But if the party does want to move to an all-primary system, the state infrastructures being established now will be invaluable in terms of influence, organization, and participation.

I just don't see what the gripe is about what's happening in the party now, except that the Clintons are no longer the leading lights. And that, to me, is not a legitimate reason in and of itself.


"The world is a mess, and I just need to rule it." -- Dr. Horrible
by BobzCat on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 01:19:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How will the party ever change? (none / 0)

The Dean/Obama 50-state strategy, with organization and a ground game being put in place in long-neglected areas of the country, is well underway. It's bringing new blood and fresh energy, as well as small donor money and volunteerism into the party. It's exploring new technologies to involve more people, and promoting grass-roots style participation at a time when fresh approaches and innovative thinking are vital for the future of the country.

It's a renovation that's growing the party, helping to energize the next generation of party activists, giving real support to Democratic challengers in red districts, and expanding GOTV to unprecedented levels. It's an approach that will ultimately challenge the republican party in every part of the country, in state and local races as well as national ones.

I don't think anybody opposes this.  

They are upset about the caucus system, the RBC ruling on Michigan, the behavior of party leaders, and the behavior of the Obama campaign.  The caucus system is well-documented.  The RBC ruling was such a stupid mistake.  The Obama campaign handed PUMA an issue.  Taking four of her delegates and giving them to Obama was a slap in Hillary's face.  He sent a very clear signal to Hillary and her supporters that he is in charge and that from now on, it's going to be his way.  That is not a sign that he is interested in reform.  It's his way.  Period.

Further, the DNC and party leaders really let us down.  Officials that were supposed to be neutral made their preferences known and nobody spoke out against he sexism or the ridiculous charges of race-baiting leveled against the Clintons.  Many Clinton supporters hold Barack Obama responsible for the race-baiting.

Let's say Obama is elected (my preferred outcome).  He sent a very clear signal on May 31st that when he's in charge, it's his way.  He will install his own people at the DNC and there will be no reforms.  He will protect the system that elected him.

Further, in the eyes of the PUMAs, the strategy of inflaming/ignoring sexism and race-baiting is validated.  Because it worked.  It got him the nomination.  Nobody was held accountable and the party went on to a big victory.  Why in the world would anybody want to look back and analyze past mistakes when Obama won?

If Obama is defeated because of an insurrection led by Democrats angry about the nomination process, then the party will be motivated to reform the system and candidates will stay away from race and gender.  Otherwise, the next time a woman comes along, why should anybody stand up for her when the media is being sexist?  And race-baiting?  Hey, it worked!  Let's do it again.
Last time, the party didn't do anything.  Much of the netroots cheered it on or participated.  (Some of the most sexist rhetoric and most ridiculous race-baiting charges of the campaign came from the netroots, particularly the big orange blog whose name I dare not write.)  So it should work again, right?  

Now, I don't completely agree with this argument.  For one, I don't hold Obama personally responsible for the race-baiting.  I do, however, think that when the Clintons were being smeared in the media and in the netroots, it is SHAMEFUL that so many people stood on the sidelines and said nothing in their defense.

Further, I think that if the PUMAs succeed in defeating Obama, Hillary will be blamed.  There will be diaries all over the internet about her secret ties to the PUMA movement and KO will air a special comment condemning her for working against Obama.  I think that the party will be so badly damaged that the divisions will spread into Congress and President McCain will steamroll right over our majorities, which we would lose in 2010.

I don't think the PUMAs are crazy.  I think they are rational, patriotic Democrats who are acting in what they believe to be the best interest of the party and the country.  I don't agree with them, but many (not all) make a very legitimate argument.


Linfar's co-blogger opposing John McCain
by psychodrew on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 02:07:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How will the party ever change? (1.50 / 2)

I'm frankly suprised at the naivete. Politics is a rough business, the stakes are very high, there's a lot of money involved, things do get dirty, and there are loose cannons everywhere.

That a candidate wouldn't assert whatever power is available to assure a win, that a presumptive nominee wouldn't move to consolidate that power through appointments, that the RBC would reach any decision that recognized and legitimized clearly flawed contests, that the first order of business of the party would be reforming the just-completed primary process rather than pivoting decisively toward the general election, all these things are unthinkable.  

Unfortunatly, all that hard political reality gets jumbled up with the race-baiting charges and counter-charges and who should've done what when but didn't and how so-and-so was mean and the media distorted things (surprise!) and so on until it's more noise than sense, more heat than light.

There are some valuable discussions to be had regarding the nominating process. Right now is not the time. There are some valuable discussions to be had regarding the role of bias in our political culture. In this charged atmosphere, we should be careful not to trivialize it with partisanship and recriminations over the past. There are some valuable discussions to be had over how the party can best position itself for success in November. They're the ones we should be having. Right now.


"The world is a mess, and I just need to rule it." -- Dr. Horrible
by BobzCat on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 03:16:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I agree with this part. (none / 0)

There are some valuable discussions to be had regarding the nominating process. Right now is not the time. There are some valuable discussions to be had regarding the role of bias in our political culture. In this charged atmosphere, we should be careful not to trivialize it with partisanship and recriminations over the past. There are some valuable discussions to be had over how the party can best position itself for success in November. They're the ones we should be having. Right now.


Linfar's co-blogger opposing John McCain
by psychodrew on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 03:31:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How will the party ever change? (2.00 / 2)

I think you are making a successful argument that many PUMAs are sincere. I am still convinced that their position is not rational. Like conspiracy theorists, they connect dots that have no connection, ignore evidence that is contrary to their mindset, and therefore base their conclusions on a schema that doesn't exist outside themselves. On top of that, they predict outcomes that have no historical basis (i.e. this protest will help reform the nominating process).   While I didn't have a problem during the primary with people who saw Clinton's candidacy primarily as an opportunity to get our first woman in the White House, now that her candidacy is over, I have very little sympathy for supposed progressives who would like to sabotage the more progressive of the two parties in order to prove an illogical point.


by glopster on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 10:32:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How will the party ever change? (none / 0)

Drew, the "reform" argument they have advanced to you is far from original. Nader's groupies have been pushing that theory for years. It's little more than convenient cover for predictable, ugly, sore loser tactics. I'm not disputing everyone's right to vote as they please - but please let's not elevate this small-mindedness to a martyr's cause.

The idea that sabotaging the campaign of the democratic nominee would promote party introspection and reform is just flat-out insane. Ask yourself if stabbing someone in the back is likely to promote a sudden chastened realization of the superiority of your views and the error of their ways.


It is not because I cannot explain that you won't understand. It is because you won't understand that I cannot explain. - Elie Wiesel
by Sumo Vita on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 02:10:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How will the party ever change? (none / 0)

Drew, the "reform" argument they have advanced to you is far from original. Nader's groupies have been pushing that theory for years. It's little more than convenient cover for predictable, ugly, sore loser tactics. I'm not disputing everyone's right to vote as they please - but please let's not elevate this small-mindedness to a martyr's cause.

I didn't say it's original, but I believe it is sincere.  If other candidates have made their argument (like Nader), then why is sore loser tactics when the PUMAs make the same argument?

And where do you get "martyr's cause" from what I said?  Who's the "martyr"?

Like I said, if they succeed in bringing down Obama, I believe that chaos and infighting, not reform, will be the end result.


Linfar's co-blogger opposing John McCain
by psychodrew on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 02:24:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

My fear (2.00 / 2)

My fear is that such a movement, if successful, would result in just the opposite of it's intended effect -- a reluctance to support female and minority candidates for fear of the same sort of disunity.  
There are ways to force the dialogue without undermining the nominee or fracturing the party.  And while I believe a small portion of PUMA people might be as interested in reform as you suggest, that doesn't explain the vitriole towards Obama -- ie. the birth certificate crap, the constant references to his race and Muslim rumors, the refusal to recognize his skills and contributions to the party.
At the end of the day, the result would be to have torn down our first black hopeful for not navigating perfectly the uncharted waters of such a candidacy.  And it would throw a pall over the candidacy of our first serious female contender, rendering it nothing more than a failed experiment in gender politics rather than evidence of the viability and strength of a female candidate.  

It will forvever be seen as "Hillary lost because she was a white woman" and "Barack lost because he was black" and because they dared to run the party was destroyed.

Is that truly the message they want to send?


Sexism is real.
by grassrootsorganizer on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 05:34:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

This is my concern also (none / 0)

The issue is, the Democratic Party has to be very clear why it would be reforming the primaries. The average person isn't aware of all the intracies of he FL/MI decision, etc. What the average person knows is that Obama won and Clinton lost.

In the wrong light, any primary reform process can easily be cast as "A Black man won, so now the Dems want to change their primaries". If you think this is farfetched, remember Chris Rock's line:

"Who ever heard of superdelegates till a black guy was in the race?".

The reason successful comic are successful is that,for better or worse, they are good at reflecting and amplifying the resonances that exist in public perception.


by Neef on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 08:04:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How will the party ever change? (none / 0)


I didn't say it's original, but I believe it is sincere.  If other candidates have made their argument (like Nader), then why is sore loser tactics when the PUMAs make the same argument?

Well, because the Nader supporters clearly occupied an alternate reality from the outset, while the PUMA gang had a sudden epiphany of the need for "reform" when their candidate lost.


And where do you get "martyr's cause" from what I said?  Who's the "martyr"?

Forgive the reference. I wasn't referring to your words there, but rather to the PUMA attempt to paint themselves as victims and spin lofty visions and noble goals out of some very mundance bitterness and small-mindedness.

I agree that at least some of them are sincere, thought sincere folly isn't something to aspire to. But there's nothing rational about that movement.


It is not because I cannot explain that you won't understand. It is because you won't understand that I cannot explain. - Elie Wiesel
by Sumo Vita on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 08:54:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How will the party ever change? (none / 0)

Very fair presentation Drew, thank you. As for not doing anything, PUMA is less than two months old.

This year it took almost 12,000 CA voters to elect a delegate. It took under 1,000 Wyomingites to elect a delegate. Meaning that my vote is valued by the party at less than 1/10th that of someone in WY. Obama carried Idaho by 18,000 votes and gained a net of 13 delegates. Hillary carried a number of states by 400,000 votes and netted 13 delegates. The election was won by a series of 'rotten boroughs', which should cast the legitimacy of the nomination into doubt.

I really wonder why my vote is worth less than 1/10th that of a Wyomingite. And feel this should be rectified before the convention.


by DaleA on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 12:41:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Questions (2.00 / 1)

Were you troubled by the Democratic process for delegate selection back in, say, last August? Did you wonder why your vote was so "devalued" back then, and did you argue for this to be changed prior to the recent primary? If the results had favored your candidate, would they have been the result of "rotten boroughs" too? Do you feel that any close result in this system raises questions of legitimacy, and how do you propose to "rectify" it at this date without damaging the party's chances in November? Honestly.

It certainly doesn't seem fair at all that, after a contest in which all participants agreed to a certain set of rules, that now, in the six weeks prior to the convention, a different set of rules should be established to decide the winner. With the assumption being that the results will be different, with a different nominee chosen.

No, that way is chaos and madness and self-destruction. I wouldn't go there.


"The world is a mess, and I just need to rule it." -- Dr. Horrible
by BobzCat on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 01:31:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Questions (none / 0)

Last August I was unaware of how out of line the delegate selection voting had become. Did not learn of this until the Wyoming primary. At that point I was shocked. That is when my concerns became concrete.

I have come to a point where I really don't care about the party's chances in November. Rather, I care about Party Principles: like one person one vote. Right now, I would like to see the delegates assigned in accord with basic Democratic principals. The Wyoming number was about 950 per delegate. Let's give each candidate delegates for every 950 votes they earned. See where that turns out. I don't know.

I would go there. Personal differences.


by DaleA on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 02:10:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Questions (2.00 / 2)

OK, so that I'm clear: at this moment in history, with as much on the line as there is, with stakes as high as they are, you would hand the White House to the republicans for another four years out of "party principles?" Principles you only just discovered recently, having not really been so interested in finding out about these matters before a couple of months ago? And you're so shocked at what you didn't bother to learn about earlier that now you don't care which party wins in November? Unless the rules under which candidates campaigned are now changed in accordance with what you want?

Oh-kay. Bored now.


"The world is a mess, and I just need to rule it." -- Dr. Horrible
by BobzCat on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 02:23:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Questions (2.00 / 2)

I hear you.  I'm so sick of talking about this.

By late March, I couldn't wait for the primaries to end because I was so tired of fighting with people that I ordinarily agreed with 90% of the time.  Now, I can't wait until the election is over because we keep talking about the primaries.  I just wish we could bury the freaking primaries!


Linfar's co-blogger opposing John McCain
by psychodrew on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 02:30:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes, but (2.00 / 2)

Clinton understood the process going in -- understood how the delegates were apportioned and chose to run within that system.  She was not denied the ability to throw her resources into Wyoming and other "delegate rich" states -- she chose not to.

She made the same mistakes McCain is making now -- she spent her money on advertising instead of a ground game, she was late to the notion of amassing small donors and she didn't employ a 50 state strategy.

Seriously, on the race-baiting issue, certainly Clinton wasn't naive enough to think that once Obama was seen as viable, AAs would flock to him and wouldn't need any "bait" to do so.  And if sexism did effect the outcome, there is no evidence that the Obama camp used it or promoted it.  

It's as if two strong contenders finished a triathalon, one winning by a nose, and the fans of the loser want to go back and challenge the layout of the course as "favoring" one runner over the other.  This was the race going in -- this was the race Clinton lost.


Sexism is real.
by grassrootsorganizer on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 05:46:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The luxury of "principles" (none / 0)

The thing that most bothers me about these lofty claims to choosing party "principles" over electoral victory, is the implication that those advocating these views must have the luxury of doing so.

I daresay a lot of these allegedly principled ethicists would be taking a dramatically different view, were their own lives on the line in this election. How fortunate for them, that their own financial positions guarantee their survival for four more years in the current economic wasteland. How thoughtful of them to sacrifice the health of Reaper's six month old cherub, together with the other millions lacking health insurance, for their "cause". How courageous their eagerness to forfeit tens of thousands of other people's children to more pointless wars, all in the name of "principles".

To the extent that PUMA caters to this self-serving, self-aggrandizing insanity, makes it well nigh impossible to regard any of its adherents without contempt.


It is not because I cannot explain that you won't understand. It is because you won't understand that I cannot explain. - Elie Wiesel
by Sumo Vita on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 11:32:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Questions (none / 0)

I'm going to jump in here.

For me, Obama won fair and square.  This came down to the SDs.  They made their choice and I respect that.  Under the rules of the party, Obama won.  Now, I think this process exposed a real flaw in the rules.  The caucuses are undemocratic and need to be reformed (or eliminated) so that more people can participate.

The reason that so many people are complaining about the caucuses now is that this year the caucuses played such a huge role in the outcome.  I believe the contest is over and Obama won, but that doesn't mean that we should just say, "Oh wow, that was grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrreat.  Let's do the exact same thing over again in 2016."


Linfar's co-blogger opposing John McCain
by psychodrew on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 02:14:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Questions (2.00 / 2)

And nobody is saying that.

The reason caucuses played such a huge role this time is because Obama dominated them so thoroughly. His campaign understood them and prepared for them, and his opponents didn't. That spoke well for his campaign's organization, ground game, overall strategy, tactical approach, and understanding of process -- all important measurements of a potential general-election campaign.

Keep in mind, a party primary is not a small-d democratic event, and was never meant to be. It's not a contest to determine who's more popular among registered Democrats at a particular point in time (usually late-winter, early-spring). It's an activist-energizing, infrastructure-building, ground-organizing process that uses a variety of measurements to determine who can ultimately put together the best campaign to represent the Democratic Party in November. That's why it mixes open and closed primaries, open and closed caucuses, single and multiple-state campaigning, etc.

Sure it has its flaws. But turning it into a "Dem-only general election rehearsal" may not be the best solution, or be in the long-term interests of the party.

Anyway, here's the current thing. When the caucus system is attacked with the intent of delegitimizing Obama's nomination, it's going to be defended. Too often, those criticizing the caucus system are doing so for those very reasons: to cast aspersions on Obama's achievements and create doubts about him.

Honest criticism of the caucus system is fine and good, and the possibility of reforms should be examined. But remember, these decisions happen at the state level. History, tradition, local power dynamics and influence, financing, etc. all factor into changes to a primary process. Coordinating that on a national level is a monemental undertaking. But as I said above, building and growing the party infrastructure in all 50 states can add to the national committee's authority, influence, and power to enforce rules and encourage change.

By the way, the thing that bothered me most this time around was the same thing that's bothered me in past cycles: the number of delegates (and influence) awarded to territories that don't vote in November. What's up with that?


"The world is a mess, and I just need to rule it." -- Dr. Horrible
by BobzCat on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 02:52:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Questions (2.00 / 1)

Anyway, here's the current thing. When the caucus system is attacked with the intent of delegitimizing Obama's nomination, it's going to be defended. Too often, those criticizing the caucus system are doing so for those very reasons: to cast aspersions on Obama's achievements and create doubts about him.

I'm not doing that.  He won.  What I'm saying is that this process exposed some flaws.  For example, Hillary getting more votes in Nevada, but emerging with one less delegate.

The Texas prima-caucus was a total mess.  

But remember, these decisions happen at the state level.

They are.  However, the national party sets the criteria.  Each state's delegate selection process has to meet that criteria.  So the national party does have influence over this process.

Keep in mind, a party primary is not a small-d democratic event, and was never meant to be.

Okay.  But in that case, why were the SDs put under so much pressure NOT to exercise independent judgment and to endorse the will of the pledged delegates?  Were they being pressured to be, well, "democratic"?

By the way, the thing that bothered me most this time around was the same thing that's bothered me in past cycles: the number of delegates (and influence) awarded to territories that don't vote in November. What's up with that?

I'm not sure.  Some of these territories, most especially Puerto Rico, have a real chance at becoming states.  Having real primaries in Puerto Rico gives us a foothold there when/if it becomes a state.  If nothing else, it gives them role in the process, which is fair considering they are US citizens and the outcome of the election will impact their lives.


Linfar's co-blogger opposing John McCain
by psychodrew on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 03:18:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Questions (none / 0)

What do you make of the fact that Obama's campaign (and many of his supporters) understood the caucus system, studied the rules and the demographics, and campaigned in such a way that left them with more delegates? What do you make of the fact that Clinton's team didn't or couldn't do these things? In those contexts, "votes" were less important measurements that the campaigns' organizational abilities. And in these contexts, Obama's campaign was clearly superior. I realize that's a hard concept for a lot of people to grasp, but there it is.

As far as changing things, look what happened when the national party "set the criteria" this time around. Yes, it has influence, but if states want to flaunt its authority, there's only so much the DNC can do. (Did you notice the howls when the RBC attempted to enforce that authority? You can't have it both ways: you can't declare the DNC to be ultimate arbiter, then complain when it arbitrates.)

And once more: the Democratic primary is a delegate selection process. It's not a popular vote contest. Neither is the general election, by the way. However, unlike the general election, the procedure for selecting delegates varies from state to state, for reasons I mentioned above. The delegate apportionment of each state reflects the results of that state's process. It looks a bit like a small-d democratic election, and it borrows some its trappings, but it's also something else. Same with the super-Ds. They respond both to the results in the state contests and to their own instincts and perceptions of who has the best campaign and will best reflect the party. Ultimately, though, their role is to essentially ratify the state delegate selection process, to produce a clear victor.

The pressure they were under was to NOT simply overrule that process, leaving us with basically two different tangible results. You can agree that this would have been a very bad thing with very serious backlash (and please don't bring up "popular vote" arguments). I realize that toward the end it was the wish of Clinton supporters that superdelegates determine the results independently (this being technically within the rules) but it also speaks to the political naivete I mention elsewhere. Anyone watching knew this was never ever going to happen.

As for Puerto Rico, it has more delegate representation than a significant number of places that already are U.S. states. I don't deny their place in the process, just their proportion of influence.

I agree it's a clumsy and flawed system, and due for reform. I just don't condone complaining about the results of it now, and don't recommend making it a priority at the present time when there are more important things to deal with.


"The world is a mess, and I just need to rule it." -- Dr. Horrible
by BobzCat on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 12:21:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

If Obama wins, (none / 0)

they will have made their voices irrelevant.  The data will support Brazile's contention that the party doesn't need them.  If Obama fails, they will have earned the derision of those of us who stayed with the party.  They have a no win situation, in my assessment.

They have come off as bad sports.


That's it, baby; let's go win this election!
by Beltway Dem on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 05:41:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Thank you, thank you, thank you, for explaining it (1.00 / 1)

so well! We are disgusted at the direction the party is headed in!

All our core values/principles, which have been enumerated here, ad nauseum, have been tossed aside for a new brand of politics. We've fought, heart and soul, for a broad democratic/progressive agenda only to see it tossed aside without a care, resulting in a conservative platform, purely to win an election at any cost.

We have not supported the party, in my case for 40 yrs, to accept readily it's transformation to a quasi-mirror image of the republican party by espousing their odious values in the name of bipartisanship. Have you noticed that all the bipartisanship BS has always been mostly beneficial to the republicans?


by suzieg on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 10:26:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Your disgust (2.00 / 1)

has made you irrelevant.  Obama is on track to win without you.  If that happens, you may wind up never having a voice in the party again.


That's it, baby; let's go win this election!
by Beltway Dem on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 11:03:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Change it to what? (none / 0)

A reply I received was about PUMAs wanting to change the party.

Change it to what?  Haven't the Clintons and allies been the most powerful brokers in the Democratic Party for a generation?  Perhaps they have better reasons, but regardless, this sounds silly.  

I try so hard to keep my contempt in check.  It's one of my worst character defects, and it has been most of my life.  I just write people off as fools.  It's particularly hard, though, when I hear things like this.  I can think of a lot of justifications that could be offered, but not this one.  They're not even trying to have a real rationale for their opposition.  They're like a blind drunk in a bar, swinging his fists in the air because he wants to fight someone, anyone.


by Dumbo on Wed Jul 16, 2008 at 11:33:26 PM EST

Re: A Season of Discontent? (none / 0)

Now is the winter of our discontent
Made glorious summer by this sun of Hawaii,
And all the clouds that loured upon our house
In the deep bosom of the ocean buried.
Now are our brows bound with victorious wreaths,
Our bruised arms hung up for monuments,
Our stern alarums changed to merry meetings,
Our dreadful marches to delightful measures.

--William Shakespeare (almost)


It profits a PUMA nothing to give their soul for the whole world... but for McCain? --Sir Thomas More (if he were here now)
by LordMike on Wed Jul 16, 2008 at 11:39:31 PM EST

Re: A Season of Discontent? (2.00 / 1)


as to what PUMAs hope to accomplish- they may want to change/reform the party, but frankly their approach is so backwards and counter-productive that their goal will never be reached.they want to teach the DNC a lesson, but the whole passive aggressive tactic doesn't play well when the stakes of the election are this big.

they can cast their votes however they see fit. its their voice; but if they withhold it or vote McCain they cant complain if McCain wins and fucks us all because through those two actions they actually help him get elected.

Obama v McCain. i mean its a no brainer.

[i really liked your wit, it was really refreshing considering the topic of PUMAs and the FISA downers. love the title.]  


"Rankles and Rush Limbaugh, ruining the chaos brand since 2008."
by alyssa chaos on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 02:13:56 AM EST

Re: A Season of Discontent? (2.00 / 1)

Hears another thought -- has any PUMA considered what another four years of GOP rule might do to the electoral process?

Is it too ridiculous to wonder if the Obama candidacy hasn't scared the crap out them to the point they would use the next four years to assure a viable grassroots movement couldn't flourish again?

And wouldn't we be effectively teaching them that a divide and conquer strategy works against us?


Sexism is real.
by grassrootsorganizer on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 06:07:04 AM EST

Re: A Season of Discontent? (none / 0)

PUMA is the new TROJAN HORSE.


by QTG on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:20:23 AM EST

Re: A Season of Discontent? (none / 0)

And Obama is not Helen of Troy.


by handsomegent on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 11:02:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Truth be told, (2.00 / 3)

the PUMA movement is irrelevant to the outcome of the election.  In fact, it's irrelevant to everyone except the PUMAS.  I think PUMA is more of a statement about emotional maturity than political integrity.


That's it, baby; let's go win this election!
by Beltway Dem on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 11:07:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Truth be told, (2.00 / 2)

Well, one has to wonder whether any organization whose name incorporates the words "My Ass" really intends to be taken seriously.


It is not because I cannot explain that you won't understand. It is because you won't understand that I cannot explain. - Elie Wiesel
by Sumo Vita on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 11:45:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Truth be told, (none / 0)

Fine, who gives ashit if you take the movement seriously, just don't forget it.


by handsomegent on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 11:55:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

What movement? n/t (none / 0)


It is not because I cannot explain that you won't understand. It is because you won't understand that I cannot explain. - Elie Wiesel
by Sumo Vita on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 11:59:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What movement? n/t (2.00 / 2)

At my age, the word "movement" linked to the phrase "my ass" is worthy of celebration, and can be a real conversation starter.


by QTG on Fri Jul 18, 2008 at 01:04:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

There you have it, folks. (none / 0)

Revealed, finally, the occasion that gave birth to PUMA. Short for "Pill Up My Ass", I presume?

This explains perfectly why its members have always come across as a bit, well, retentive.


It is not because I cannot explain that you won't understand. It is because you won't understand that I cannot explain. - Elie Wiesel
by Sumo Vita on Fri Jul 18, 2008 at 01:15:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Isn't ironic, (2.00 / 2)

by crying, "I am a grownup; I will not be irrelevant," they operationally negate both parts of the formula.


That's it, baby; let's go win this election!
by Beltway Dem on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 11:55:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Isn't ironic, (none / 0)

All votes on election day are relevent.


by handsomegent on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 12:16:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No, (2.00 / 2)

the votes of the winner are relevant.  It is unfortunate, but it is true.


That's it, baby; let's go win this election!
by Beltway Dem on Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 12:17:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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